Former Archbishop of Canterbury hits back at critics

Well we’re joined now by Archbishop George Carey, or Lord Carey of Clifton, as he’s known these days. Archbishop, thank you for joining us.

George Carey: Good morning, lovely to be on your program.

Stephen Crittenden: Can I get you first of all, to give us a reaction to this letter, many of whose signatories are Australian clergymen.

George Carey: Yes, I’m very disappointed really. I think it’s an unfair and ill-founded letter. The authors didn’t even have the courtesy to check up facts with Bishop Peter Lee in the United States, and certainly not myself. The first I heard about it was when Father David Woods sent me the open letter. I think it’s a reprehensible way of behaviour for Christians and I’m very disappointed in them because in fact I’m not interfering, I’m not feuding with Archbishop Rowan, who’s a friend of mine, and indeed his office sent out a statement to say that warm and cordial relationships exist between us. So I don’t know what the nonsense is about.

Stephen Crittenden: What about a range of matters relating to the fact that Gene Robinson was made a bishop, and particularly your involvement in a group of confirmations, in a way that some might see as making it very difficult for Rowan Williams at a very difficult time.

George Carey: Well it could only be difficult if I’m opposed to him, which I’m not. He is wanting the American church to support the Windsor Report, and I guess the open letter people don’t want that. It seems to me that they are a liberal group of people who don’t like the orthodox position. But when you talk a range of things, I’d like to know what they are, and you mentioned one thing only, and that is, the confirmations in Virginia, and I’m going to be doing another one in two weeks’ time, at the request you note, of the bishop himself whose ministry is not acceptable for 20 parishes, large evangelical parishes, because of the stance he took on Gene Robinson, but because he wants to hold them in the diocese, he doesn’t want them going under some African bishop, he’s invited me to take the confirmations, and I think as a result he’s brought peace to his diocese. I can’t see anything wrong about that, and I can’t see how it undermines –

Stephen Crittenden: You’re not shifting blame onto the Bishop of Virginia for asking you to do this, refusing to take responsibility for accepting his invitation at such a sensitive time?

George Carey: No, no. He asked me to do it. I did not interfere, he asked me to do it because I’m acceptable – he’s a good friend of mine, I know the parishes pretty well as well. Now if I’d said No, what would have happened is that those people, those priests, would have gone to other bishops who were not acceptable to Bishop Peter Lee.

Stephen Crittenden: I wonder though whether you’re perhaps turning yourself into a kind of flying bishop, the very phenomenon in fact which gave you such a headache when you were Archbishop of Canterbury.

George Carey: Well no, I mean actually flying bishops, no problem at all, we did that in Britain in order to create peace, and I think if the American church could do that as a policy, I think that that would be a very good way forward.

Stephen Crittenden: You’ve said that the ordination of Gene Robinson as a bishop was a huge mistake that’s damaged the Anglican church.

George Carey: Yes, there’s no question about that, he’s done huge ecumenical damage, it’s done damage to our nation in Muslim countries, and I think it’s split the Anglican communion. I think it was very unwise, and I hope that the general convention which happens I think in June, will back away from that and not do any other consecrations. If they did, I think, I fear, a major schism in the communion.

Stephen Crittenden: How far to the heart of the Anglican faith does it go?

George Carey: Well I think it goes pretty deeply. I mean it undermines marriage itself, it undermines our traditional attitude on sexuality. This is not to say that homosexuals are unwelcome, far from it. We are talking about express behaviour, and I think there is a debate that rolls on on these questions. When I presided over the Lambeth Conference of 1998, we put the issue on hold. I think we found the mind of the church in a very overwhelming way, when a huge number of bishops, not only from Africa, but around the world said No to practising homosexuality, and within five years the American church had gone ahead instead of actually letting the debate roll on. So that’s where we are today, and again, it is a very difficult situation for us.

Stephen Crittenden: You mentioned the Lambeth Conference there. I know it’s the view of some of the signatories to this letter that the division over this issue that the Anglican communion worldwide is experiencing now, does indeed go back to that Lambeth Conference. They would see it as something that you helped create at that Lambeth Conference, that in a sense the church is suffering for that further down the track.

George Carey: Well not suffering from. What the Lambeth resolution did was to express the mind of the assembled bishops so very clearly, so there was no change of policy and what the Lambeth resolution did was to say “This is where we stand. But the debate and discussion with homosexuals must continue”. And so the American church really has brought that to a halt by making the decision which undermines that resolution so clearly.

Stephen Crittenden: I come back to the question, why is this such a big issue?

George Carey: Well it is an enormous issue in terms of our attitude towards scripture itself, our interpretation of scripture, our understanding of the sacramentality of marriage, the social order, and so on, the nature of ordination. All these things are very important indeed, and let me say this, I don’t want to be seen as a leader of a party in opposition. I’m a retired Archbishop, I spend most of my time in inter-faith and educational matters, but all I’m responding to your questions see this as a very concerning matter, and it is very difficult now for the Anglican communion to resolve it.

Stephen Crittenden: Was it almost verging on being a heretical act?

George Carey: Oh, I think so, yes.

Stephen Crittenden: Why would you say that?

George Carey: Well I want to go back to the points I’ve already made, and that is to do with the nature of marriage itself, the nature of our sexuality, and these are not issues that can be handled easily in a quick telephone conversation. But there’s a lot of detail out there. I refer to things I’ve written as well on this matter. I’m not an absolutist on this, I want to make that clear. I think it was a mistaken act. I mean there was a man who was married, fathered two children, divorced, living in a relationship with a man, and appointed bishop. I think that in itself in Britain would have been a very surprising thing. I couldn’t see it happening because our whole canon law would have resisted that. And here is a man who is now an alcoholic, as well, and so all of these issues combine to question that position.

Stephen Crittenden: There are plenty of straight priests in the world of course who are alcoholics.

George Carey: Yes, I know. I think what I’m saying is if you look at the whole issue, it causes us enormous pain, and I cannot see that that decision, when was it, a few years ago, was a good decision that helped the communion. It certainly didn’t. If you look at the American church today, it’s suffering very hugely as a result of that decision.

Stephen Crittenden: David Wood, one of the signatories who we’ve spoken to of the letter, says there’s also a widespread view that you blocked Rowan Williams from becoming Bishop of Southwark because of his, I guess liberal views on homosexuality. Is that true?

George Carey: No, it’s not true, and indeed I cannot go into that because I was part of the Crown Appointments Commission looking at the appointment of the Diocese of Southwark, and there were issues there that were very, very complicating indeed and I refrain from commenting on that.

Stephen Crittenden: Just finally. How weak is the position of Archbishop of Canterbury in general, in 2006, because of this issue?

George Carey: I think Rowan of course is a splendid man, and a wonderful theologian and we need his guidance as we find a way through this swamp of different ideas and interpretations. His position is handicapped by the fact that his position has been taken by the American church which makes the matter so much more complicated. But I have to say that the Windsor Report over which he presided, is a splendid document, and if we could all get behind that document, and support it all heartily, the Anglican communion could emerge from this greatly strengthened. I think it’s a wonderful document and that is what I’m trying to support. My ministry is not to get in his way, but support him whenever I can.

Stephen Crittenden: Thank you very much for being on the program.

George Carey: Thank you very much indeed, bye-bye now.

Stephen Crittenden: The former Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr George Carey. See The Archbishop of Canterbury and George Carey; Opus Dei and the Da ...
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